Two in the Box

Featuring Chris & @BuffaloWins

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Chris: Joe, it’s yet another Sabres season with no playoffs and the top ranked prospect pool. You must be over the moon.

Joe: Ah yes, where’s Ted Black to send out another booklet stating we won the prospect title? Maybe Kris Baker can come out with his own beer called prospect IPA.

Speaking of beer, the only way you can get me through a Sabres game is a beer. Lots of beer. WTF has happened to me? It wasn’t too long ago we’d be fighting over importance of prospects, Derek Roy being a top 20 center, Cody Hodgson getting a lucrative deal, Tim Murray giving away draft picks like he’s giving away tips at the bar, and Kim Pegula telling us we don’t know anything. It’s dark times for me. I’ve watched probably six periods of Sabres hockey this season and while I can blame my newborn baby or 7-9 p.m. is Joe and wife TV time, I’m just beaten by the Sabres. The losing has killed. And as someone who has been around for 44 years and 17 of those happened during the Bills drought, I think this drought is worse somehow. What say you?

Chris: It’s an interesting question. The Bills drought owns the longevity, though the Sabres seem to be doing their best to match it. But the Bills only drafted in the top five three times during the drought, and one of those was trading up for Sammy Watkins. They drafted in the top 10 six times in that span. Meanwhile, the Sabres have picked in the top 10 on 10 separate occasions and four of those picks came in the top two. The Bills drought was long and rife with mediocrity, but it didn’t come close to the depths the Sabres have mined. I think that’s the biggest talking point between the two. Did the Bills general mediocrity during the drought make it easier to stomach than the Sabres inability to avoid the bottom five?

Joe: I think you have to start with the players. While you’re right that the Bills weren’t terrible, they were just mediocre, they did have some fun characters that fans could get behind. You had Stevie Johnson, Marshawn Lynch, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Fred Jackson, Eric Moulds, Lee Evans, and Mario Williams. Almost half the city had their own Poz jersey. I think those players made it somewhat easier to stomach the Bills drought. As for the Sabres, can we even say who have been their popular players over the last decade or so? Players who the fans really like on a popularity scale or just personality wise. There’s nothing because I tend to think those players don’t really like the fans all that much because they’re sick of being booed. You’ll never have close to the connection that the bills mafia has with the football team then the Sabres fans have with the Sabres. And let’s not forget the cult of the Bills Mafia started during the drought and I believe that was a year 10 of it. So, while there’s some who probably did jump on the bandwagon of Josh Allen, there were a lot at the start of it.

But the bottom line to me is what makes these individual Sabres players likable, and the only thing I can come up with is “well they have fun goal songs.”

Chris: I’d add that the structure of each season probably lends itself to the Bills drought being easier to stomach. You only needed to deal with them once a week for 17 weeks. The Sabres are there three or four times a week from October until April. That’s a lot more attention to the struggles of a group and allows for many more opportunities to focus on the losing as it’s happening. So it’s easier to get sick and tired of a Sabres player who might otherwise deserve more adoration. Another thing I’m interested in exploring, how much of the Bills drought can be looked at favorably now that it’s been snapped and they have a mutant alien freak playing quarterback who makes almost every game an event?

There definitely is a clear difference between the likability of Bills and Sabres players though, you’re on to something there. I’m not sure if it’s an issue with how the players market themselves, how the teams market them, or what, but they present two distinctly different views. I’m not sure if I’d attribute much of it to the rise of the Bills Mafia movement, because I think a lot of Bills players were still generally very well liked by the fans publicly. Though, pre-Bills Mafia the Sabres were winning and that core group was definitely very popular. So maybe it’s not fair to try and compare things before the Stevie drop and after it.

Joe: I think NFL being king helps out. Hockey is popular in Buffalo as I feel more kids play the sport than a majority of American cities. Yet, the ratings and attention, even during the Bills drought, seemed to be bigger than what the Sabres were doing. The only time I can remember the Sabres taking a big chunk of the popularity was 05-07 when the Bills were going through the 7-9 era of Dick Jauron and the Sabres went to back-to-back Conference Finals.

I don’t know if you can look at the Bills drought as being favorable at all for Bills fans. The main reason is I think fans of the current product are scared that if they make a big change (See: McDermott) it’s possible in their headspace that they could see them going back to the drought era because that memory still stings. We can call it “drought brain” where fans are scared if we lose the coach who led to the end of it, we will could repeat the cycle. In a twisted way, it reminds me of when Lindy was here and folks were scared if the Sabres fired him, he’d win multiple cups and the Sabres would go to hell. They got that half right.

I wanted to ask you about venues. How much do you think atmosphere plays into it?

Chris: Oh, it has to be a massive consideration. Even when things during the drought felt the lowest – they weren’t competitive on the field, they weren’t in the market for marquee free agents and their prospects for a turnaround were grim – Bills games were still an event. There’s was some sense of civic duty in continuing to go to games despite there being little to no sign of real improvement coming. There were still a fair share of games that Russ Salvatore bought up tickets to avoid blackouts, so there was some sign of apathy late in a few of those seasons, but on some level, fans were happy to go have some beers and do their duty as Bills fans eight times a year. Maybe that speaks to the schedule more than the venue since your obligation is eight home games vs. 41. So there’s cost considerations as well. But the party atmosphere at the stadium has definitely been more enticing than at KeyBank Center.

Joe: Is there anything that the Sabres had better during this current drought the Bills had during their drought? Because it feels like you and I are leaning towards the Sabres drought being worse. Part of me wants to say while the Bills had more personality during the drought, yet the Sabres seemed to have more star power on the ice. But part of that star power I think can backfire because how did the Sabres get these guys? It was by finishing last. I think going through hell to get these guys and then resulting in more suffering killed the fan base. The tank was supposed to result in automatic playoffs and it didn’t. I don’t think the Bills had close to that sort of battle cry. Is there anything you can say that Sabres had better than the Bills?

Chris: The Bills had their big ticket acquisitions, namely Terrell Owens and Mario Williams, but for the most part it was pretty thin in the star category for the Bills. They had their big performers but I think Buffalo’s limitations as a market definitely came to a head during the Bills drought. It just wasn’t somewhere a lot of players wanted to be, especially with their lack of success on the field.

The Sabres took their runs at some big names as well. Ryan O’Reilly and Evander Kane were both highly sought after, young players when they were acquired. Particularly O’Reilly. And they followed that up a few years later with the Taylor Hall signing. Kyle Okposo could be considered here too. If he wasn’t the #1 free agent of the 2016 class he was one of the best of that group entering July 1, 2016. We’ll have to save the debate over free agency in the NHL for another time, but at the time he was a player who garnered attention in the league. All of this is a long way of saying the Sabres have had a bit more success in the talent acquisition department when comparing the two droughts. Their draft picks play a role in this as well. The Sabres have brought in a lot of high-end prospects and many have been impact players. The inability to build around those players has been the issue.

I do wonder, how much of our reflection on the BIlls drought is colored by their recent success? Not only have they gotten back to the playoffs, but their quarterback is one of the two or three best in the league and they’ve been a perennial preseason Super Bowl pick over the last few years. Does the wave of positive news from One Bills Drive help gloss over parts of the drought?

Joe: I don’t know. The people who were in charge of the drought for the Bills aren’t there anymore. Ralph Wilson owned technically 14 years of it, while the Pegulas only had their hand in the two seasons of Rex. If anything, maybe they are viewed more as lovable losers. I’ll always remember how much Bills fans were completely over Ryan Fitzpatrick, but once he started showing off his chest hair on TV and the national media started liking him, he became a hero for us. I do wonder if the drought was still going during Fitz final years, maybe we wouldn’t be as aww we still love you.

The one thing I’ll say I think the Bills had it worse, and that’s ownership. I had absolutely zero faith in Ralph Wilson or our favorite whipping boy, Russ Dipshit Brandon. At least with the Sabres, my confidence with the Pegulas died probably around Housley’s first year and when O’Reilly was traded, but prior to that I was on the up and up with them because they had so much money. I never ever liked the Brandon & Wilson partnership.

Chris: I think I’d take it one step further and say that the Sabres at least approached each step of this drought with a plan. The plans haven’t come to fruition, but you knew the approach they were taking. In Pegula’s early days of ownership, he committed to spending to the cap and bringing in more talent. We know that didn’t work out, but they had a committed approach. Same with the decision to rebuild. Darcy made his determination and they set out on that course. We’ll see how building through the draft treats them. But there was a stretch of the Bills drought where it felt like they were just drilling holes. They didn’t have a serious quarterback, they didn’t have any game breakers and they were probably going to be 7-9 or 6-10. That was a bleak existence.

I’m not sure what the moral is there since practically every approach has left the Sabres in 26th overall. But that stands out as a difference between the two droughts.

What is boils down to, for me, is that the Bills never really felt like they hit rock bottom. There were some really bleak times and some bad losses, but I’m not sure I ever looked at them during, or after a season and felt like things couldn’t possibly get worse. Whereas I feel like the Sabres test those bounds on a monthly basis.

Which of the two teams do you think had the lowest lows of their respective droughts? You can pick a stretch of time or a singular event, up to you.

Joe: It’s so tough. One thing that just popped in my head was the Bills relocation rumors. That was like 13 years of the Bills drought and I was definitely one of those fans who felt there was a good shot they’d leave after Ralph died. It was super nerve wracking and it didn’t help that they were whoring out games to the Rogers corporation which wanted to move the team to Toronto. That fucking sucked. On the other hand, we have the Pegulas losing money left and right and having to sell off assets around the arena and a firing list that is longer than what the Bills drought era had.

I’m going with the Sabres drought being worse. And the main reason is that I’m detached to them outside of watching highlights and reading Twitter. That has to be the one since I was there for the Bills until they broke the drought. Just look at how empty the arena is. Remember how many Sabres blogs there were circa 2013? There’s yours and the nerdalytics guys. That’s it. Furthermore, finishing last four different seasons and not seeing the W/L column reverse cause of high picks is worse than 7-9. So I’m going Sabres. You?

Chris: The Sabres definitely feel much more bleak. Maybe it’s because the 24-hour news cycle and social media are far more intense these days as compared to even those early years of Pegula’s takeover. No matter what the cause is, I keep coming back to the Sabres seeming inability to claw out of the bottom 10 and how hopeless if feels to see them first chase veteran help, then try for high-end picks and now to be patient with their pipeline and see them make no more progress with one approach over the other.

The relocation point is a good one to bring up. I feel like that was part of the civic responsibility to keep showing up even as mediocre as the Bills were for all those years. If the seats were full it would be harder to move them, or something like that. The Toronto series really was such a slap in the face too. I don’t want to upset anyone with this take but do you factor in the fan connection to this? I feel like you can’t even say something vaguely negative about the Bills on social media without getting shouted down by a mountain of fans. While everyone seems pretty much on the same page when it comes to airing their grievances with the Sabres. I’d like to see the alternate universe where the core of the Sabres fanbase are the hopelessly optimistic and positive group while the Bills diehards are more caustic towards the team.

Joe: While I think Bills X is a cesspool where you have Bills bros and BillsTMZ doing what they can to get clout with sticking up for them and being obnoxiously protective, I think the loyalty from Bills fans are due to the team being really good and that they have a bigger connection to the players. Think about how many Bills players and even their wives are on social media. FFS Queen Britt became a thing. All of them get a bunch of Bills bros sticking up for them no matter what. I don’t really recall that many people sticking up for the team during the Jauron years. I remember after they kept Jauron after 2008 it felt like a funeral. Even go to the Marrone years, by 2014 I felt everyone couldn’t stand him besides the Bills broadcast announcers.

Back to the hockey team, are there even any Sabres players on social media that resonate with their fans besides the yearly dog the team adopts? I think if the W/L were reversed, it would be the same with the fans. I remember when Drury and Briere left, you had a number of fans taking the side of the team and making them out to be villains. I even remember folks sticking up for Golisano, a guy who didn’t care about hockey and just wanted to make a buck. Remember how many people wanted to take out Bucky when the Sabres were good. Mike Harrington’s goodwill with the blogger community and yes, I’m old enough to remember when he had that, went down in flames the first year Terry owned the team and they were just two years removed from a division title. A big reason for them sticking up for the Sabres was because of Winning. 4 playoff seasons out of 6 seasons will do that to you.

Chris: The connection on social is notable. Maybe it’s a personality thing but the hockey players definitely seem more reserved and separate from the community as a whole. It definitely relates to winning too. To your point, guys like Miller and Drury have made comments about people approaching them at Wegmans during the good times. It could definitely be completely inverted based on wins and losses.

I want to circle back to the idea of one or both of the teams hitting bottom. Do you think the Bills ever got there? Because that’s what sets it apart for me. The Sabres somehow manage to mine new depths of failure and ineptitude. The Bills always found new and creative ways to lose, but I’m not sure it ever felt like they were truly scraping the bottom.

Joe: If we go by W/L record, 2010 and 2001. The Bills went 3-13 and 4-12. But you can say they were in the first year of a rebuilding plan because they had a new coach/GM for those seasons, so it was expected. To me, the worse years of the drought were when the Bills had expectations. I was sucked into Bledsoe coming to Buffalo. I was sucked into Takeo Spikes, Sam Adams and Lawyer Milloy coming here. I was sucked into TO. Mario Williams? Rex Ryan? Count me in. Probably out of the 17, I felt good about six of those seasons in August. It wasn’t every year, but when they made those moves I just mentioned, I thought playoffs were coming. Sometimes as a fan, Lucy pulling the football from Charlie Brown is worse than hitting rock bottom in the W/L column because you knew they’d suck.

Chris: There definitely were quite a few years there were there were next to no expectations for the Bills. Brady owned the division and there weren’t many rosters that could realistically challenge for a wild card spot. Whereas the Sabres have had their fair share of offseasons where you held out some level of expectation of success. In 2013 and 2014 Regier had laid out his plan to rebuild, so you knew they’d be selling assets and focusing on the draft. That didn’t change with Murray and after they bottomed out those two years, the thought was they’d be ready to win. Murray’s work in the 2015 offseason played a pretty big role in that too. The summers in ’16 and ’17 weren’t super promising, but certainly didn’t feel ominous either. Even the summer O’Reilly gets dealt, they swing the Skinner deal, so that level of optimism remained. But since then, I’d say only this past summer was one where any sense of confidence had been rebuilt. So there has been more opportunity for the Sabres to let the fans down and that’s been one area they’ve made sure to hit the mark.

Just to add a few closing thoughts, I think even if you consider how recency bias may skew your view of both the Bills and Sabres respective droughts, the Sabres have managed to plumb new depths of disappointment. I think this season’s struggles have probably extinguished any hope that there was a light at the end of the tunnel, which probably feels even more bleak for some fans. I know that was a feeling at times during the Bills drought – the idea that the end was nowhere in sight – and now the Sabres get to carry that banner. Guess they need to find their version of Andy Dalton.

Joe: As a spiteful person, the hell we’ve been through with both teams I’d definitely wish on my worse enemy because both droughts suck and I’d want my enemy to suffer. At some point, it has to end for the Sabres. How can you have this long of a streak when half the league makes the playoffs?